Talking to Brick Walls

The following is a conversation I had with a few people on someone’s wall on Facebook. I have not edited this at all except for changing their names to their relationship with one another (so note, when I say “Father” I am not talking about my dad or God). I only included the responses of the people participating in the “conversation.” Any addition I make now will be clearly identified with []. I myself am not proud of the way I behaved in the beginning. I allowed myself to act out of anger and spoke like an asshole. Anyways, I’m just looking for feedback on this. Especially criticisms on how I handled myself. I attempt to keep an open mind when I have conversations like this and actually consider what the other party has to say so that I do not become exactly what I am preaching against. Help me to see where it seems like I failed in this endeavor. Note that I did wait two days before posting this in order to give “Father” an opportunity to post any closing comments, but he never did so.

Daughter is praying for Rush Limbaugh.

Daughter’s Friend
I hope he makes it...that will be one step closer to a socialist nation without him[sp]

Daughter
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2418140/posts

read[sp] that. Its[sp] people's tweets about it. sick.

Daughter’s Friend
They don’t[sp] know any better. There[sp] socialist[sp] Marxist[sp] democrats[sp].

Jesse
Daughter’s Friend , I agree whole-heartedly that it is bullshit to wish death upon any person, but can someone explain to me how anyone can be a part of three mutually exclusive political parties? I keep seeing people say this but it just doesn't make any sense. If you are Socialist then by definition you aren't a Democrat or a Marxist, etc. Please stop saying this. Criticism is great, but you're going to have to provide criticism that actually makes sense. Otherwise please just don't say anything.

Daughter’s Friend
Hey Jesse- that’s[sp] called freedom of speech. You wouldn’t[sp] know about that because you sound like a pansy liberal. The word marxist[sp] was used to represent our fine leader Obama...fine? Ooops i meant terrible. He is Fidell[sp] on steroids. Everyone will see soon when the health care package goes into full effect...

Jesse
Daughter’s Friend, I'm sorry but did you even read what I said? I don't care what you say about Obama; I just want it to make sense when you say it.

Father
Hey Jesse... what Daughter’s friend is saying makes perfectly good sense to me. What scares me is that it makes no sense to you. The democratic party[sp] has been hijacked by marxist[sp], socialist. [sp] That once great party who still hail John F. Kennedy as their crown achievement is the opposite of what it once was.. "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" is now "Don't worry. You're too stupid to know what is good for you so your country is going to do what we know is best for you. Oh, and by the way, we need all of your money to make it happen." You need to decide if that is what you want to side yourself with or at least recognize that is going on in your party and do something about it.

Jesse
Father, I'm not a Democrat; it isn't my party. I don't care that you are criticizing the administration; this is good! We always need to question who is running our country. I'm not saying that the current administration is some kind of Godsend but that people need to speak in an intelligent manner if we are ever going to make any progress as aspecies[sp]. What he says only makes sense to you because your personal definitions of these terms are not in line with the actual definitions of these political ideologies. I agree with you that our country's aim has changed for the worse in many ways, but we need to communicate clearly to remedy this. If you want to say that Obama or his administration have some ASPECTS of Marxism or socialism or whatever then you need to be clear WHICH aspects you mean. Being a Marxist mean that you believe everything that Marxism stands for, including not following OTHER political ideologies. Marxism and socialism are NOT the same thing. Understand what a word means before you use it to describe a person, or a group of people.

Jesse
I understand that he is TRYING to say that the current administration has aspects of Marxism and socialism. But because he actually used these words in an incorrect manner I do not know which aspects he is trying to communicate so his statement (and those of thousands of others I have seen and heard) doesn't communicate anything but an extremely vague idea: that the current administration has some aspects of Marxism and socialism. This leads me to believe that they doesn't[sp. . . I meant “don’t” (this sentence originally said “he” but I changed it to “they” right before I posted it)] actually know what they are talking about and simply are repeating things that they have heard but did not understand. By this same logic people could start saying ridiculous things like "Christians are Satanists!" This is the same thing; Christianity has one aspect in common with Satanism, they both go to a church and have a ritual. But we all know that these two religions are quite different.

Jesse
Understand that I am not indenting to insult or step on anyone's opinions; I just know that we need to all learn to speak to one another with clarity, understanding and respect before this country is ever going to get out of this shithole. I believe that this is what God wants us to do. Do you disagree with this? If so then I will shut up, because I know that arguing values is a pointless endeavor.


Father
@ Jesse... I welcome the dialogue. Don't get me wrong... I think the republicans fiscally fucked things up and got us rolling down a steep hill. No doubt. Some of the things they employed were also very socialistic. The drug program for the elderly is one. Clearly the country was in debt at the end of Bush's term. But Obama and the dems have made that fiscal disgrace look like a misers convention. His signing off on this last years spending spree (and to think that this was to "save the economy" is a pork filled joke) in the face of what we were up against has been despicable and irresponsible. But what can you expect from a Saul Alinsky following community organizer with no experience at running anything? You dig into that ilk and you will find yourself knee deep in socialist and marxist[sp] beliefs that drive their actions. That is undeniable. Barack is our first affirmative action president. We elected this guy with hearts on our sleeves and boy was that stupid. No one knew him or where he came from. You weren't allowed to ask or your[sp] were a racist. He talked a great game. Now we got what we got. This is a very dangerous lot in power right now and I do not like them. Do the republicans have a solution? Not that I can see. They suffer from the same ugly ass disease. They have all been around too long and have made self serving careers at the publics[sp] expense. I am for a big broom and pushing everyone of the SOB's out and getting some in there that understand the concept of public service with respect for the constitution. Or it's divided we fall.

Jesse
I think we can put whoever we want in charge and it still isn't going to change anything. We don't need to change our president, we need to change ourselves. Far too many of us likes[sp] to sit at home and blame the politicians (and other people). But if we all sit around and scream at each other instead of conversing then the president can NEVER please even most of us. No matter what, pretty much half of our country is always going to be unhappy with the president's decisions. For some idiotic reason we have decided to let our opinions divide us into separate nations.

Healing starts with encouraging others to quite[sp] wasting half their time trying to change people's opinions and the other half flinging insults! This also sets an example for our children so that they can carry us further forward. Instead of shitting on people because of our differences, we need to be exploring our similarities. We are all here trying to survive, love, raise families and fulfill our purpose, but instead of helping one another we make all of these things difficult for each other. All because the other person has the OPINION that the plan that you THINK will work, won't.

And people can't just sit there and say "Well THEY aren't going to do it, so I'm not going to." I mean, if you really do think like a 3rd grader I suppose you should at least do it to show the other person up. NO, IT HAS TO BE YOU! YOU! have to start NOW, it is your responsibility as a caring American citizen. Stop judging everyone else and judge yourself. Do your actions match your beliefs?

Working together is the ONLY plan that will save us.

Nobody can fulfill the president's job completely until WE all decide to and agree on compromises and vote for the same guy.

Until we find a way to unite, it's divided we fall.


Father
They will be glad to know you bought it Jesse. That is exactly what they want you to think... that you and I are the problem and not them. You need to read up on Saul Alinsky. I would figure a guy stuck in such parsimony as to question the difference between socialist beliefs that lead to socialism versus entrenched socialism would be smart enoughnot[sp] to fall for "it's your fault... if you people would quit disagreeing, get in line and get it together then we could effectively govern." Certainly has worked just great for the people in places like China, North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, Russia (pretty much any oppressed country in the world)....

Jesse
So you are saying that infighting promotes solutions?

It isn't that I value parsimony so much, but that I want people to think about what they say before they say it and to think about what they hear before they repeat it. It is that simple. That is my entire argument. You are continually putting words into my mouth. I hope that this is due to misunderstanding and not lobbyism.

It is impossible that they "Have gotten to me." Because I don't listen to "them." I don't watch the news, I don't read the newspaper. Hell, I don't even watch TV. I really don't care about politicians and so I ignore them for the most part as I already said above. I don't listen to the same person spewing their opinion everyday. I get my news about America and about the world through several various international news sources so that I may have a perspective that is in balance with humanity. I get my advice by studying the writings of our forefathers and other great thinkers of the past. By what means are "they" controlling me? My information sources do not trace back to them. Did they implant a device in my brain? This is where your suggestion is leading - conspiracy theory.

None of your argument seems to have arisen from logical thought. What are your sources of information?

I look at the facts and then draw conclusions. I am trained as an engineer, I think as an engineer. I am not the one repeating nonsense sentences. You have no reason to conclude that my thoughts are not original conclusions except from your own preconceived notions. You have already assumed (incorrectly) that I am a Democrat based on no real evidence. By what logic do you assume that I am brainwashed? READ what I am writing and stop adding your own illusions.

To come to same conclusion that I did above you only need to read the writing of great philosophers of the past and apply their writings to today's issues. Or do you think that Jesus' word no longer applies? Is listening to his advice "falling for something" as you say? Jesus taught All of the values which I push in my argument above. I am merely attempting to show people how to relate his teachings to today's world and encouraging them to do so. Why are you so against this? (I am assuming you are Christian, since you sent your daughter to Christian schools and thus are familiar with these teachings. If I am incorrect, I apologize.)

How can you honestly believe that if we attempted to work together nothing would work? If I had as little faith in humanity I would have given up long ago. . .

Besides this you rat on China which DOES have a lot of issues, I know. But did you also notice that with their government model they were able to take China from a state of utter devastation (Civil war, recovering from the opium trade pushed by Britain, poverty, lack of technology) to one of the most productive countries in the world in under 50 years? You CANNOT deny this fact. What they did was AMAZING. This is why Chinese citizens are proud of their government. Everyone from a different country is not an idiot like you seem to think. Obviously there are many flaws and they still have a while to go but, certainly we can learn something from what they did. Their actions were drastic because their situation was drastic. If we don't wait too long, our's will not have to be quite so drastic.

An intelligent person can learn to see which aspects of a broken system are good ideas, it is a fool who would ignore the entire system and miss an opportunity to learn.

Jesse
Why do you think that people keep using words like “Communist”, “Socialist” and “Marxist” instead of just describing the actual platforms and political positions they disagree with? It is obvious. These are SCARE tactics. People don’t associate these words with the actual ideologies they refer to but with the countries which implemented CORRUPTED versions of them. The fear and propaganda from the cold war is still ingrained within the American heart. The U.S.S.R. was a terrible example of what communism actually is but that is what many people think the word means. So, people pushing their political opinions use these words to instill a sense of emergency. They want to make their political opponents seem like these crazy evil people to Americans who don’t understand what these words actually mean. Then these people go around and spread the propaganda for them. Again I’ll go back to my Christianity – Satanism example: If I want the new people in town to stay away from the Christians, I’ll just tell them that the Christians are just like the Satanists. If I spoke clearly and accurately (The Christians go to a church and so do the Satanists) they would have no reason to be afraid.

Father
Your view of China tells me enough. "They are AMAZING." China built what they have on oppression and on the backs of children. They force the people to work at pennies a day and allow them to have one child. If that child is not a male, you accept your lower status in society. And guess what made their country so great in the last 50 years? Think about it? Where did most of our manufacturing jobs go? 50 years a go[sp] they were all here. Now they are there... the reason is for what I stated above... take that one to Jesus. Who buys most of what they manufacture now? We do. Pick up just about anything you buy and underneath it has a little sticker that says "Made in China." So what prosperous country spent their money on goods in China thereby allowing them to prosper? We did. They did not do this in a vacuum. They are not AMAZING. Unless you buy into oppression, child labor and killing those who disagree with you. Again, not much Christ like in any of that. However you come to your conclusions and from what source matters not to me. It's your conclusions that are bothersome. And there is no way you read a thing on our forefathers and have a walk away that what China has done has been AMAZING. People like you scare the fuck out of me. You talk with fairly intelligent sentence structure and talk about coming together for the greater good and at the same time spew out it's because of Jesus and his teachings and what China has done has been AMAZING. You sir are very conflicted and I can see why people like myself make little to no sense to you. And understand this. I prefer to keep it that way. I am tired of attempting to be politically correct only to save the feelings of the moronic. It only encourages the idiots and thieves among us. If you are an idiot, then you are part of the problem and not the solution. How can we ever fix the problems when we do not allow ourselves to point them out as they occur or assign them to the ones creating them? And good luck with your Jesus thing. You got part of that figured out correctly.

Jesse
Ok, clearly you don't respect me enough to actually read what I am writing. I clearly stated that the methods they used were extreme. I didn't say that they are amazing, I said that the achievement was amazing. You are so completely black and white about everything. You SAID that you welcomed a dialog but you aren't participating in one.Instead[sp] you keep picking off irrelevant side components of what I am saying and arguing about them. This is pointless, [sp] I'm done speaking with you. You don't know how or are not willing to have a conversation.